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The Next Coach

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20 minutes ago, Yuke said:

they made playoffs didn't they?

And swept the Lightning, would have loved to have Torts coach this sorry bunch.

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39 minutes ago, Messrules11 said:

I see your point, obviously, I’m just getting frustrated watching guys like Quenville and Vigneault getting snapped up while we still have no GM.

I get it  but I am not convinced these old "high profile" guys are who we want anyways. If you look at the teams making the playoffs there are not too many coaches that one would think of when talking about coaches that have had long term success in the league.  The only ones that really stand out in that vein to me  are Babcock, Tortorella, Laviolette, Trotz and maybe Maurice (more so just number of games coached). So the other 9 I would consider relative new comers. Other than Deboer they are all in the 500 games or less coached category (Cooper is 508). I think some fresh blood would be a good thing.

Edited by IGibb

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4 minutes ago, IGibb said:

I get it  but I am not convinced these old "high profile" guys are who we want anyways. If you look at the teams making the playoffs there are not too many coaches that one would think of when talking about coaches that have had long term success in the league.  The only ones that really stand out in that vein to me  are Babcock, Tortorella, Laviolette, Trotz and maybe Maurice (more so just number of games coached). So the other 9 I would consider relative new comers. Other than Deboer they are all in the 500 games or less coached category (Cooper is 508). I think some fresh blood would be a good thing.

Dallas Eakins comes to mind. 

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10 minutes ago, Messrules11 said:

Dallas Eakins comes to mind. 

And the last two veteran coaches (one the 3rd most winningest in history) with the added benefit of best player in the world have faired that much better? Not to mention the fact the Pacific was probably the toughest division in hockey when Eakins was here and this year it was arguably the worst.

Edited by IGibb

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13 hours ago, Messrules11 said:

I can see your point but at the same time to give credit to GG for McD and Draisaitl is absurd. These guys are all-stars and would get their points regardless. Kassian and Chaisson were there merely for the ride and Nuge and Nurse are top 10 picks. What did he he do for the rest of the team?Thats where you can evaluate his worth for what he can teach. And it’s a huge fail.

And to hold GG responsible for the donkeys on this team is equally if not more absurd...………...Khara, Reider, Cave, Brodziak, Lucic, Malone, Currie, Gambardella, Zykov and the list goes on.   

We had the 2nd current winningest coach in the NHL behind this team, and you want to single out GG to take the blame for the above bunch of donkeys? 🙄

Maybe the finger needs to be pointed at the players, or better still the GM who assembled the roster, I would think the last people to blame would be the coaches, and I think there is proof looking at how  many have we had over the past few seasons.

You don't really know if GG is a superb offensive coach or not. Maybe it was the players who did not have the desire to work hard enough or the skill to implement his plans.

Just look at the list I provided again, and let me know who are the goal scorers at the NHL level.

  

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23 minutes ago, IGibb said:

And the last two veteran coaches (one the 3rd most winningest in history) with the added benefit of best player in the world have faired that much better? Not to mention the fact the Pacific was probably the toughest division in hockey when Eakins was here and this year it was arguably the worst.

So if it was the worst division, and yes it was, and a HOF coach can’t move the needle what makes you think some ‘young blood’ as you put it is a better choice? 

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9 minutes ago, Blackhawk216 said:

And to hold GG responsible for the donkeys on this team is equally if not more absurd...………...Khara, Reider, Cave, Brodziak, Lucic, Malone, Currie, Gambardella, Zykov and the list goes on.   

We had the 2nd current winningest coach in the NHL behind this team, and you want to single out GG to take the blame for the above bunch of donkeys? 🙄

Maybe the finger needs to be pointed at the players, or better still the GM who assembled the roster, I would think the last people to blame would be the coaches, and I think there is proof looking at how  many have we had over the past few seasons.

You don't really know if GG is a superb offensive coach or not. Maybe it was the players who did not have the desire to work hard enough or the skill to implement his plans.

Just look at the list I provided again, and let me know who are the goal scorers at the NHL level.

  

GG was fired in Calgary, came here and should be fired again. Kharia, Reider, Brodziak and Lucic all had terrible years, career lows for most if not all of them. Of course the finger should be pointed at them, it should also be pointed at Gulatzan, PC, Hitch and TM

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32 minutes ago, Messrules11 said:

So if it was the worst division, and yes it was, and a HOF coach can’t move the needle what makes you think some ‘young blood’ as you put it is a better choice? 

Because it is clearly not the coaches that are the problem. One would think after having 8 different head coaches in the last 10 years and having nothing to show for it in terms of overall improvement that would be pretty obvious to every Oilers fan.

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5 minutes ago, IGibb said:

Because it is clearly not the coaches that are the problem. One would think after having 8 different head coaches in the last 10 years and having nothing to show for it in terms of overall improvement that would be pretty obvious to every Oilers fan.

Obviously the roster is flawed, but it’s not the same roster we had 10 years ago either. If we can fire PC and TM why are the assistants still here? Get rid of them all

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6 minutes ago, Messrules11 said:

Obviously the roster is flawed, but it’s not the same roster we had 10 years ago either. If we can fire PC and TM why are the assistants still here? Get rid of them all

No but do you think TM and his staff just forgot how to coach between the 103 point season and the following 78 point season?

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1 minute ago, IGibb said:

No but do you think TM and his staff just forgot how to coach between the 103 point season and the following 78 point season?

I think we caught teams off guard that year, stayed healthy, and Talbot stood on his head. 

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4 minutes ago, Messrules11 said:

I think we caught teams off guard that year, stayed healthy, and Talbot stood on his head. 

You sure like blaming coaches for bad performances but not crediting them for good ones. Sorry but I don't buy that kind of one sided argument.

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1 minute ago, IGibb said:

You sure like blaming coaches for bad performances but not crediting them for good ones. Sorry but I don't buy that kind of one sided argument.

That’s fine, it’s my opinion. After missing the playoffs for 12 of 13 years why credit anyone not named McD or Draisaitl?

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Imo finishing in first winning the presidents trophy and losing 4 straight is worse then finishing last in the league. How embarrassing for that team 

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2 hours ago, Messrules11 said:

GG was fired in Calgary, came here and should be fired again. Kharia, Reider, Brodziak and Lucic all had terrible years, career lows for most if not all of them. Of course the finger should be pointed at them, it should also be pointed at Gulatzan, PC, Hitch and TM

So why single out GG?   I have seen support for him on this very thread by others, but you seem for some reason to have a bee in your bonnet about Glen Gulutzan.

Like someone mentioned, he did OK in Calgary, didn't win a cup or anything, but neither has any coach in Calgary or Edmonton for a long long time.

Whoever is our next coach can't come in with guarantees of success. Personally I don't care who it is, if the roster doesn't improve by a significant margin, that coach will (to use  your earlier words) will fail.

And if you are going to start finger pointing, it needs to begin higher up in the pecking order...……..Burger Bob should be out on his backside by now, and Katz needs to ask himself does he really want to own a NHL team.

If any of the coaches should have a finger pointed at them it should be YawneySchwartz………...defence & goalies were worse this last season than I recall in a long time.

Or are you going to blame GG for the that part of the team also? 

 

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1 hour ago, toolttime said:

Imo finishing in first winning the presidents trophy and losing 4 straight is worse then finishing last in the league. How embarrassing for that team 

Especially a team that the Oilers had a 100% record against during the season.

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1 hour ago, Blackhawk216 said:

So why single out GG?   I have seen support for him on this very thread by others, but you seem for some reason to have a bee in your bonnet about Glen Gulutzan.

Like someone mentioned, he did OK in Calgary, didn't win a cup or anything, but neither has any coach in Calgary or Edmonton for a long long time.

Whoever is our next coach can't come in with guarantees of success. Personally I don't care who it is, if the roster doesn't improve by a significant margin, that coach will (to use  your earlier words) will fail.

And if you are going to start finger pointing, it needs to begin higher up in the pecking order...……..Burger Bob should be out on his backside by now, and Katz needs to ask himself does he really want to own a NHL team.

If any of the coaches should have a finger pointed at them it should be YawneySchwartz………...defence & goalies were worse this last season than I recall in a long time.

Or are you going to blame GG for the that part of the team also? 

 

I want him gone plain and simple, if he stays or gets a promotion to head coach it’s just another example of why this franchise continues to fail.

Edited by Messrules11

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5 hours ago, Messrules11 said:

GG was fired in Calgary, came here and should be fired again. Kharia, Reider, Brodziak and Lucic all had terrible years, career lows for most if not all of them. Of course the finger should be pointed at them, it should also be pointed at Gulatzan, PC, Hitch and TM

McDavid, Chiasson, and Nuge had career years under Gulutzan's coaching. Gully showed up and Drai scored 50. Kassian with a career high in goals.

...it's a tough argument, either way....


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12 hours ago, BoomnotBust said:

I don't think a strong case can be made for GG as head coach, his results in Dallas and Calgary were underwhelming.

Depends upon what your definition of "underwhelming" is.    In the 3.5 seasons as head coach, his win % is just a smidgeon under 50%, (49.65% to be exact).

His record as an NHL head coach is 146-125-23.  That averages out at 88 points per season...…….which this season would be good for 9th place in the Western Conference, just two points behind the Avalanche who took the last Wild Card spot.

So considerably better than we achieved under TM & KH.

I would not describe that as "underwhelming", not by a long shot. 

Please explain why you consider a virtual 50% win record as "underwhelming", especially without much head coaching experience at the NHL level.  I don't understand where you are coming from.

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36 minutes ago, Blackhawk216 said:

Depends upon what your definition of "underwhelming" is.    In the 3.5 seasons as head coach, his win % is just a smidgeon under 50%, (49.65% to be exact).

His record as an NHL head coach is 146-125-23.  That averages out at 88 points per season...…….which this season would be good for 9th place in the Western Conference, just two points behind the Avalanche who took the last Wild Card spot.

So considerably better than we achieved under TM & KH.

I would not describe that as "underwhelming", not by a long shot. 

Please explain why you consider a virtual 50% win record as "underwhelming", especially without much head coaching experience at the NHL level.  I don't understand where you are coming from.

.500 hockey in the NHL is losing hockey.

Not too many seasons ago, only the bottom 5 teams (out of 30) had a record below .500.   Right now, the illusion of parity in the league is dissolving as the best run teams are climbing higher and higher (again), and the worst run are dropping like rocks off a bridge .... the bottom 10 teams are at or below .500.

50% ... is underwhelming when it IS bottom 1/3 of 30 teams.


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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3 hours ago, DeutchOil said:

.500 hockey in the NHL is losing hockey.

Not too many seasons ago, only the bottom 5 teams (out of 30) had a record below .500.   Right now, the illusion of parity in the league is dissolving as the best run teams are climbing higher and higher (again), and the worst run are dropping like rocks off a bridge .... the bottom 10 teams are at or below .500.

50% ... is underwhelming when it IS bottom 1/3 of 30 teams.

Sorry Deutch but you don't know the difference between .500 hockey and a 50% win ratio.

GG as an NHL coach (with two not brilliant teams) has 315 pts in 294 games.   That is 1.07 pts per game, projected over a full 82 game season = 88 pts.

.500 hockey is surely 82 points isn't it?

88 points this past season is just one win out of a play off place, so not far off the mark, and certainly a lot better than the 79 points we mustered under one of the winningest coaches in NHL history, and one that has just secured a five year contract in LA.

The bottom line is whoever we get as a head coach and unless the GM pulls out some miracle moves, it is going to be difficult.  For me, GG is a good a choice as anybody.

    

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6 hours ago, Blackhawk216 said:

Depends upon what your definition of "underwhelming" is.    In the 3.5 seasons as head coach, his win % is just a smidgeon under 50%, (49.65% to be exact).

His record as an NHL head coach is 146-125-23.  That averages out at 88 points per season...…….which this season would be good for 9th place in the Western Conference, just two points behind the Avalanche who took the last Wild Card spot.

So considerably better than we achieved under TM & KH.

I would not describe that as "underwhelming", not by a long shot. 

Please explain why you consider a virtual 50% win record as "underwhelming", especially without much head coaching experience at the NHL level.  I don't understand where you are coming from.

He made the playoffs once in 4 years, never won a round and both times he got canned the team that fired him made the playoffs the next season, Calgary as first seed no less. So yeah, his record is underwhelming 

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55 minutes ago, BoomnotBust said:

He made the playoffs once in 4 years, never won a round and both times he got canned the team that fired him made the playoffs the next season, Calgary as first seed no less. So yeah, his record is underwhelming 

So not much different from the 8 or so coaches we have had over the past (not sure how many) seasons.

The Oilers have made the play offs once in the last 13 seasons...……….not saying GG is the man for sure, but he can't do much worse than almost all of those 8 coaches.

And Calgary now on the verge of being knocked out in the first round...……..again.    Make of that what you will.

Whatever your opinion is, and you are entitled to it of course, an average of 88 points per season is not underwhelming unless  maths is not your strong point.  The third most winningest coach in  the NHL couldn't get us past 79 points.   Beggars can't be choosers, I would take 88 points next season as at least it would show some improvement and might even be good enough for a play off spot.

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These posts are making me think - how do you even measure a coach?  Can you really just look at win%?

What is really the difference between a good coach and a poor coach?  Are we talking a 60 point difference, or a 10 point difference?  I'd lean towards the 10 - if that.  Vital points for sure, especially for bubble teams, but ultimately the players get the results.  The roster is the roster - the coach's job is to maximize that roster, not turn lead into gold. 

Important question - but of the 3 questions of upper mgmt, roster, and coaching - coaching is the least of our worries. 

Though now I wonder why Dustin Schwartz keeps surviving these changes?


fantyleaguecupbgnocchi_zpsd26307cf.png

 

Credits to UnrefinedCrude for the signature.  Big thanks!

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3 minutes ago, Blackhawk216 said:

So not much different from the 8 or so coaches we have had over the past (not sure how many) seasons.

The Oilers have made the play offs once in the last 13 seasons...……….not saying GG is the man for sure, but he can't do much worse than almost all of those 8 coaches.

And Calgary now on the verge of being knocked out in the first round...……..again.    Make of that what you will.

Whatever your opinion is, and you are entitled to it of course, an average of 88 points per season is not underwhelming unless  maths is not your strong point.  The third most winningest coach in  the NHL couldn't get us past 79 points.   Beggars can't be choosers, I would take 88 points next season as at least it would show some improvement and might even be good enough for a play off spot.

So by your logic, we should hire anyone that has made the playoffs at a rate of twice or more out of 13 years?

I am good at math actually. You tout 88 points like it is good, that isn't a good point total and will typically land you outside the playoffs, as GG found out. You also have to take roster strength into account, the roster GG is going to have is going to be less to work with than what he has typically had in the past.

 

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3 hours ago, BoomnotBust said:

So by your logic, we should hire anyone that has made the playoffs at a rate of twice or more out of 13 years?

I am good at math actually. You tout 88 points like it is good, that isn't a good point total and will typically land you outside the playoffs, as GG found out. You also have to take roster strength into account, the roster GG is going to have is going to be less to work with than what he has typically had in the past.

 

You say that like GG hasn't learned anything. Still the same coach that he was...Not saying he's the answer, because the answer comes from the guys on the ice

TM? Hitch? Did they learn anything? Big names. Known quantities. And here we are


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11 minutes ago, Fogolin2 said:

You say that like GG hasn't learned anything. Still the same coach that he was...Not saying he's the answer, because the answer comes from the guys on the ice

TM? Hitch? Did they learn anything? Big names. Known quantities. And here we are

Has he learned to be a better head coach? I don't know. You can't just assume that he is going to be better. The difference between him and TM and Hitch is that those guys have won elsewhere. That's what I am saying, proven head coaches couldn't win with the roster why would we expect GG to.

Edited by BoomnotBust

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