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Fogolin2

Draft Lottery GDT

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8 hours ago, Big_Fuzzy_Dice said:

didn't reinhart cost a 2nd and a third not a first and a 2nd,  Really It wasn't a bad a deal as everyone makes it out to be in the end when you consider that vegas took him off our hands, It really did only cost an extra low end pick to stiff vegas with him.

Not a bad deal?!?!?  Hahaha.  Was one of the worst trades I’ve ever seen!

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1 hour ago, bronco73 said:

that trade still makes me want to throw up.  The biggest reason we are in the pickle that we currently are in IMO.

Yep.  

Those TWO players (both should have become NHL players, if the scouting was what it should be), would have filled our roster nicely the last TWO years.

What also gets my goat, was all the cooing and cawing on here about what a great deal it was and the years of "Griff is a future top 2 defender; top 4 at worst" that was posted on here.  "Oh what a travesty that we lost him to Vegas. Just you wait, Vegas will show us what he is."

Barf.


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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18 minutes ago, bronco73 said:

Yup.  Here is the worst part.... with those two picks he could have gotten both Mathew Barzal AND a defenseman (Carlo, Dermott, Spencer etc)

That's what happens when you WILLINGLY lose a trade just to fill a current need or hole.  Just like the Taylor Hall trade, PC handcuffed this team with that completely idiotic trade.

Created a Crater ..... didn't fill anything.

Barf .....


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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13 minutes ago, DeutchOil said:

Yep.  

Those TWO players (both should have become NHL players, if the scouting was what it should be), would have filled our roster nicely the last TWO years.

What also gets my goat, was all the cooing and cawing on here about what a great deal it was and the years of "Griff is a future top 2 defender; top 4 at worst" that was posted on here.  "Oh what a travesty that we lost him to Vegas. Just you wait, Vegas will show us what he is."

Barf.

Ok, it was costlier than I thought. , So long ago and so much bellyaching about it I've pretty much flushed it from the memory.  But that's a lot of "if's" you're predicating that judgement on. the oil would have pooched it up, we know barzal wasn't on the radar and well the oil woulda OBC brain trusted it up, so.  Call it a wash,

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15 minutes ago, Big_Fuzzy_Dice said:

Ok, it was costlier than I thought. , So long ago and so much bellyaching about it I've pretty much flushed it from the memory.  But that's a lot of "if's" you're predicating that judgement on. the oil would have pooched it up, we know barzal wasn't on the radar and well the oil woulda OBC brain trusted it up, so.  Call it a wash,

Potential wasted.


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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2 hours ago, bronco73 said:

Yup.  Here is the worst part.... with those two picks he could have gotten both Mathew Barzal AND a defenseman (Carlo, Dermott, Spencer etc)

That's what happens when you WILLINGLY lose a trade just to fill a current need or hole.  Just like the Taylor Hall trade, PC handcuffed this team with that completely idiotic trade.

 

1 hour ago, Big_Fuzzy_Dice said:

Ok, it was costlier than I thought. , So long ago and so much bellyaching about it I've pretty much flushed it from the memory.  But that's a lot of "if's" you're predicating that judgement on. the oil would have pooched it up, we know barzal wasn't on the radar and well the oil woulda OBC brain trusted it up, so.  Call it a wash,

You are correct BFD - neither was Kyle Connor, nor Chabot. I have it on really good authority they were going to take Svechnikov or Ericksson Ek with the #16 pick, and Carlo wih the 31st pick. Carlo would be in this team, Svechnikov has to play in the NHL and Ericksson Ek has been up and down (mostly down) with Minnesota.

That all being said - still better than Reinhart - by mile

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2 hours ago, bronco73 said:

Yup.  Here is the worst part.... with those two picks he could have gotten both Mathew Barzal AND a defenseman (Carlo, Dermott, Spencer etc)

That's what happens when you WILLINGLY lose a trade just to fill a current need or hole.  Just like the Taylor Hall trade, PC handcuffed this team with that completely idiotic trade.

IMO, when Boston asked for Nurse to be included in the trade and Calgary stepped up with their offer, PC panicked.

He wanted/needed to be seen as doing something to fill that gaping Top 2 D hole.

I think that he could have acquired a serviceable #2 or #3 D from the UFA market to run the PP for much the same price as he paid for Reinhart.


I am an Alberta fan, which in my case means I follow Calgary & Edmonton.

 

No hate here, I hope that they both do well.

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9 minutes ago, 420since1974 said:

IMO, when Boston asked for Nurse to be included in the trade and Calgary stepped up with their offer, PC panicked.

He wanted/needed to be seen as doing something to fill that gaping Top 2 D hole.

I think that he could have acquired a serviceable #2 or #3 D from the UFA market to run the PP for much the same price as he paid for Reinhart.

Edmonton and Calgary had equal offers for Hamilton, even without Nurse.  It was Boston rubbing it in to the guy they fired, Chiarelli.

Edmonton's offer was the 16'th, 33'd, and 57'th picks

Calgary's offer was 15'th, 45'th, and 52nd. 

There is NO WAY adding Nurse to that would have been a fair deal... which makes me wonder why PC didn't go for it then lol... his bosses probably laid the stumps to him before he pulled the pin.

 

But you are right, when Boston flubbed their nose at PC, he panicked and jumped at one of the few D available at the time, and WAY overpaid to get him.  Acquiring a serviceable D from the UFA market would have cost us zero picks, so the price would have been nothing but cap.  It's what he SHOULD have done.  But like so many times while he was managing this team, he panicked and WAY overpaid to fix a hole.  He has no clue how to manage a bad team.  He was fine when he inherited a good team and coasted, but when it actually came to building a roster in Edmonton, he failed miserably.


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In no way do I think that adding Nurse to that offer would have been at all fair to Edmonton.

It wouldn't surprise me if Boston was just jerking PC around and/or trying to rip him off, but that does not excuse the panic from PC.

There were big holes on defense, he needed to add two Top 4 D, not a raw prospect.

Mike Green, Cody Franson, Andrej Sekera, Francois Beauchemin, Johnny Oduya, Paul Martin, Christian Erhoff, Zbynek Michalek, and Barrett Jackman were all available as UFAs.

The Oilers did out bid Colorado for Sekera (6 X $5.5M), but that was not near enough.

Then less than 9 months later, Justin Schultz was traded away for a 3rd round pick, and the holes on D just got deeper.

 


I am an Alberta fan, which in my case means I follow Calgary & Edmonton.

 

No hate here, I hope that they both do well.

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On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:21 PM, OilyJetFan said:

Nice thought - but you're forgetting something. We need money in order to trade a #8 for 'value' - unless you want to trade the #8 pick for a guy making 2M or less. We have NO MONEY Bill and #8 isn't sweet enough to move money with it to get a good return.

I say we keep the pick. We need more talent. I'm actually pretty good with 8 now because like Bouchard last year, he'll go back to Junior. If we won the draft lottery (i.e. 2nd pick) you know Kakko would be 'forced' to play with McDavid his first year, fail miserably and we'd end up trading him for a 3rd rounder. 

 

The pick on it's own wouldn't bring back much . But as part of a package they might get something of value , maybe even ditch some salary . There are plenty of options , they might even consider using the pick + prospects or a roster player to move up in the draft . A new GM might need to get creative to improve the roster sooner rather than later , make his mark on the team . Hopefully they hire someone with brains  .

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16 hours ago, bronco73 said:

But you are right, when Boston flubbed their nose at PC, he panicked and jumped at one of the few D available at the time, and WAY overpaid to get him.  Acquiring a serviceable D from the UFA market would have cost us zero picks, so the price would have been nothing but cap.  It's what he SHOULD have done.  But like so many times while he was managing this team, he panicked and WAY overpaid to fix a hole.  He has no clue how to manage a bad team.  He was fine when he inherited a good team and coasted, but when it actually came to building a roster in Edmonton, he failed miserably.

And Yet, the last 3 seasons (PC's seasons) of the past 13 years have been by far the Oilers best 3 seasons.

Says a lot about the management before PC arrived (MacT and Howson with Nicholson as POHO), the management before that (Tambellini and Howson/MacT with Lowe as POHO), and the management before that (Lowe and Howson).

Why this club keeps pretending the last 4 years are completely on PC, when he was the only factor that brought even laughable improvement, and conveniently pretends the 9 seasons before that didn't happen?  

Katz?  Seriously?  You can't do better?


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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1 minute ago, DeutchOil said:

And Yet, the last 3 seasons (PC's seasons) of the past 13 years have been by far the Oilers best 3 seasons.

Says a lot about the management before PC arrived (MacT and Howson with Nicholson as POHO), the management before that (Tambellini and Howson/MacT with Lowe as POHO), and the management before that (Lowe and Howson).

Why this club keeps pretending the last 4 years are completely on PC, when he was the only factor that brought even laughable improvement, and conveniently pretends the 9 seasons before that didn't happen?  

Katz?  Seriously?  You can't do better?

very true.  Actually I'd give PC a passing grade on drafting.  He drafted decently enough, and was able to find that young talent.  It's finding and acquiring existing NHL talent that he fails miserably at.


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Just now, bronco73 said:

very true.  Actually I'd give PC a passing grade on drafting.  He drafted decently enough, and was able to find that young talent.  It's finding and acquiring existing NHL talent that he fails miserably at.

Yep.  And building a farm system.

Somehow the remaining management is taking credit for that ... when for 9 years, THEY are the ones that left PC with nothing and no development in that regards.

Makes me wanna cry.


"I'm not a patient man".........."Talk is cheap."Craig MacTavish inauguration 2013

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23 hours ago, Big_Fuzzy_Dice said:

Ok, it was costlier than I thought. , So long ago and so much bellyaching about it I've pretty much flushed it from the memory.  But that's a lot of "if's" you're predicating that judgement on. the oil would have pooched it up, we know barzal wasn't on the radar and well the oil woulda OBC brain trusted it up, so.  Call it a wash,

'flushed' is an appropriate metaphor for that trade.  


HONEST !   A nybody  B ut  E dmonton

 

 

in pursuit of the McDraft sweepstakes...

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7 hours ago, billpayor said:

The pick on it's own wouldn't bring back much . But as part of a package they might get something of value , maybe even ditch some salary . There are plenty of options , they might even consider using the pick + prospects or a roster player to move up in the draft . A new GM might need to get creative to improve the roster sooner rather than later , make his mark on the team . Hopefully they hire someone with brains  .

It's possible. But my point is we literally have no money. We have 9 players that are going to be UFA's or RFA's now - Rieder, Rattie, Khaira, Chaisson, Petrovic, Gravel, Stolarz, Montoya, and Puljujarvi

Not all of them are on our roster mind, but it's still 9 players that have to be re-signed (or replaced).

Our cap space for next year is 8.4M

Like I said, we have no room to bring in anyone and #8 won't help in moving any 'bad' salary we have. We could move up though - never know on that. 

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4 hours ago, OilyJetFan said:

It's possible. But my point is we literally have no money. We have 9 players that are going to be UFA's or RFA's now - Rieder, Rattie, Khaira, Chaisson, Petrovic, Gravel, Stolarz, Montoya, and Puljujarvi

Not all of them are on our roster mind, but it's still 9 players that have to be re-signed (or replaced).

Our cap space for next year is 8.4M

Like I said, we have no room to bring in anyone and #8 won't help in moving any 'bad' salary we have. We could move up though - never know on that. 

So which is it , first you say they literally have NO money , then you say they have $8.4M of cap space for next year . Also you forget the cap is going up to $83M , possibly even higher . They have cap issues that they will have to deal with that's obvious . Thanks for that update .

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re: capspace, if Katz will sign the cheque (and that is a big if) I think they should buy out Lucic. That assumes they can't trade him and I seriously doubt they can. Opens up 4 million in cap space going forward, the bad news would be the 2 million hit for the next 8 years but the guy is barely a NHL players making 6 million per, that's crazy.

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One thing to consider in doing that buyout, is what is the status going forward of McD's "posse"...Lucic, Kassian, and Nurse?  Job #1 for Lucic is to ensure teams don't take liberties with our smaller / skilled players.  It's worked very well because of Milan but also the readiness of Kassian and Nurse. 

McD has 7 more years here....they better be healthy ones.


The Future Ain't What It Used To Be

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8 hours ago, billpayor said:

So which is it , first you say they literally have NO money , then you say they have $8.4M of cap space for next year . Also you forget the cap is going up to $83M , possibly even higher . They have cap issues that they will have to deal with that's obvious . Thanks for that update .

Bill - we can't trade #8 for 'value' - by that I mean, a player who is 'worthy' of giving up the #8 pick for. We don't have the money. It's so easy to sit behind the keyboard and say this stuff but ok - who? Who can we get in a trade for #8 that will be worth it and can fit under our cap? How do you think we got in this predicament to begin with? Doing the same thing over and over again is the definition of what again?? My point is we need to do what a real, professional, sports team does. We need to stockpile our OWN players, develop our OWN players. Just look south of us. Look what Calgary has done. The trades they make are usually trades with 'their' players they drafted to get better, or they keep their players and develop them. That's what we need to. So trading #8 - ummm no. Unless, as you said, we package something else with it to move up the ladder in the draft if there's a player there we really like. That makes sense. Lets see, oh you said we could maybe package #8 with a , ahem, a 'bad contract'.... for...... what? Take off your Oiler fantasy hat here Bill, and put on another teams hat. Tell me, what 'valuable' piece would you give off your roster for our #8 and a 'bad contract'. Unless your name is Peter Chiarelli, there is no GM dumb enough to give us anything even close of resembling value for that trade. At best we'd get a younger, 'bad contract' coming back. So I'm just keeping it real. I mean, if someone was dumb enough to give us value for #8, and take a bad contract off our hands, I'd be all for it, don't get me wrong. I'm just a realist here - not going to happen. So we keep 8 (or package it with a prospect like an Ethan Bear for instance) and move up if there's someone there we really like.

7 hours ago, BoomnotBust said:

re: capspace, if Katz will sign the cheque (and that is a big if) I think they should buy out Lucic. That assumes they can't trade him and I seriously doubt they can. Opens up 4 million in cap space going forward, the bad news would be the 2 million hit for the next 8 years but the guy is barely a NHL players making 6 million per, that's crazy.

Nope - doesn't work like that. Hate to break it to you but Lucic's contract is structured in such a way that it is pretty much buyout proof. Well, the last four years of the 8 year's we'd have to pay him would be ok, we'd have a cap hit of 625,000. But the next four years (which is what's left) the cap hit would be , well here just look (column on the far right is the cap hit):

 

SEASON BASE SALARY INITIAL CAP HIT ACTUAL COST SAVINGS FINAL CAP HIT
2019-20 $3,000,000 $6,000,000 $625,000 $2,375,000 $3,625,000
2020-21 $1,000,000 $6,000,000 $625,000 $375,000 $5,625,000
2021-22 $2,500,000 $6,000,000 $625,000 $1,875,000 $4,125,000
2022-23 $1,000,000 $6,000,000 $625,000 $375,000 $5,625,000
2023-24 $0 $0 $625,000 -$625,000 $625,000
2024-25 $0 $0 $625,000 -$625,000 $625,000
2025-26 $0 $0 $625,000 -$625,000 $625,000
2026-27 $0 $0 $625,000 -$625,000 $625,000
TOTAL $7,500,000 $24,000,000 $5,000,000 $2,500,000 $21,500,000

 

So as you can see, in those first four years, in year 2 and 4 you're literally having zero impact on your salary cap relief, year 3 you could get a 4th line retread player, and this coming season you could get a decent dman or decent winger for the season. Oilers are much better off, if they can't move the contract (which if they can the GM that does it should automatically win exec of the year by the way) just to eat it for the next four years. There is no real cap savings. That's just the facts. 

This is why I don't want to trade any picks, we need now, more than ever, to stockpile and develop. I don't think, given our position, that any team is going to gift us any 'real' talent - why would they? When this (and a few other) bad contracts are up, we could very well be in a position to be a powerhouse with our 'developed, in house' players. Then we can make the moves we need to make. 

Edited by OilyJetFan

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Looking at the way that buyout is structured, Lucic’s agent is a genius. Who is his agent anyway? 

Obviously we keep him barring a trade but if he’s not playing well in the future I hope the new coach has the smarts to healthy scratch him. If we’re paying him 6M to play and he’s a liability or paying him 5M+ to go away permanently I don’t see a whole lot of difference.

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I didn't know that, I thought buyouts were 1/3 the hit for double the years, didn't realize the hit changes year to year. Lucic agent is a genius indeed and then on the other spectrum we have Oilers management.

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On 4/13/2019 at 8:02 AM, Messrules11 said:

Looking at the way that buyout is structured, Lucic’s agent is a genius. Who is his agent anyway? 

Obviously we keep him barring a trade but if he’s not playing well in the future I hope the new coach has the smarts to healthy scratch him. If we’re paying him 6M to play and he’s a liability or paying him 5M+ to go away permanently I don’t see a whole lot of difference.

He's perhaps too much of a genius - the contract is all but unmoveable - but what if Lucic ever wanted to be moved?  He pretty much nailed himself to Edmonton.  He's got no out.


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16 minutes ago, nocchi said:

He's perhaps too much of a genius - the contract is all but unmoveable - but what if Lucic ever wanted to be moved?  He pretty much nailed himself to Edmonton.  He's got no out.

as he already found out.


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On 4/13/2019 at 12:34 AM, RapierShot said:

One thing to consider in doing that buyout, is what is the status going forward of McD's "posse"...Lucic, Kassian, and Nurse?  Job #1 for Lucic is to ensure teams don't take liberties with our smaller / skilled players.  It's worked very well because of Milan but also the readiness of Kassian and Nurse. 

McD has 7 more years here....they better be healthy ones.

I think that Looch has not been very responsive when McD is hound dogged / hog tied out there.  He has hardly responded.  Now, as a deterrent, just by being there, he might be effective , but he hasn't been very active out there.


HONEST !   A nybody  B ut  E dmonton

 

 

in pursuit of the McDraft sweepstakes...

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16 hours ago, kman23 said:

I think that Looch has not been very responsive when McD is hound dogged / hog tied out there.  He has hardly responded.  Now, as a deterrent, just by being there, he might be effective , but he hasn't been very active out there.

Funny. This discussion again. I tend to agree, but what exactly do you mean by 'deterrent'? I say he should smack a few guys around but for real, so taking the penalties would be worth it. When it comes down to it, saying 'deterrent' is not defined. The only way to actually be one is to take out someone like Kadri with a good punch to the face. I'm all for it. 

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6 hours ago, WHA fan said:

Funny. This discussion again. I tend to agree, but what exactly do you mean by 'deterrent'? I say he should smack a few guys around but for real, so taking the penalties would be worth it. When it comes down to it, saying 'deterrent' is not defined. The only way to actually be one is to take out someone like Kadri with a good punch to the face. I'm all for it. 

agreed.  he should have done that a lot more this year.  i think he's getting past that age-wise and believing that getting lots of hits instead of engaging specific rabble rousers is good enough.


HONEST !   A nybody  B ut  E dmonton

 

 

in pursuit of the McDraft sweepstakes...

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11 hours ago, kman23 said:

agreed.  he should have done that a lot more this year.  i think he's getting past that age-wise and believing that getting lots of hits instead of engaging specific rabble rousers is good enough.

He's not even 30 yet. Not buying it ;) 

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On 4/14/2019 at 10:12 PM, kman23 said:

I think that Looch has not been very responsive when McD is hound dogged / hog tied out there.  He has hardly responded.  Now, as a deterrent, just by being there, he might be effective , but he hasn't been very active out there.

If you were playing on a team where 14 of the 23 guys weren't good enoug to help, 2 guys were injured, and 6 guys didn't give a Cheerio.....who would you fight and why?


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11 hours ago, Fogolin2 said:

If you were playing on a team where 14 of the 23 guys weren't good enoug to help, 2 guys were injured, and 6 guys didn't give a Cheerio.....who would you fight and why?

I would always do my job as best I could. Remember the "swagger" Looch talked about, the term which even McD adopted. You don't have to be a number one team to stick up for your stars and be a team others know they have to respect.

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